Hi everyone, and welcome back to your favorite segment Global Village. In today's episode, we have in our studio two special guests, Michele and Elliott.

Michele is an old friend to the show and has appeared in a few episodes. He's currently based in Shanghai and owns a wine importing business, specializing in Italian wines. Elliot is the founder of his own wine import business as well as the owner of the popular wine bistro in Shanghai. Both are wine experts, obviously. Welcome to the show, Michele and Elliott.

Hi, lulu. (Michele)

Thank you. Great to be here.(Elliott)

Great to talk to you again.

Today we're going to be talking about Italian wines from the Abruzzo region. But first of all, can you guys give us a brief self introduction about your businesses? Let's give the opportunity to Elliot first.

Hi, my name is Elliot Shay, I’ve been in the wine business off and on for about 20 years. I started my wine import company in China about 10 years ago, focusing mostly on wines from Europe, one of my specialties with Italian wines; and then a couple of years ago I started a wine bistro called Crush that aims to pair amazing wines with more American pan-Asian fusion food.

Okay. It sounds fantastic, I Love sort of the fusion in food.

And Michele, I know that you've introduced yourself several times on the show, but could you still briefly give us an introduction?

Sure. So I'm Italian. I live in Shanghai since almost 15 years and I am in the wine business since ten almost. I'm also a sommelier from the Italian Sommelier Association (品酒师协会). I know Elliott since long time and we also sometimes work together within his bistro.

Okay, all right. So after the self introduction, I would like to jump directly into the whole Abruzzo wine topic. First of all, I would like to ask you to as individuals, what is your impression, not just as an importer or restaurant owner, but as just a wine drinker, wine lover, what is your impression of Abruzzo wine? Elliot?

I think that the ones from Abruzzo are quite versatile, really easy drinking, but also unique and complex at the same time, both the reds and the whites. I was actually quite surprised when I first tried them because I didn't think that they were gonna be as good as they really are.

Okay, what about you? Michele?

I totally agree with Elliot on this part of the versatility of the wines they have. They are very good in different kinds of occasions. And according to the style, you can use it really, have a very wide applicability in the food pairing, and also not to forget that value for money, it's extremely high for an Italian wine especially.

So that was your individual opinion. What about as an importer? I know for a fact that Elliot, as your import business actually carries... actually sells some of the Abruzzo wines and you also serve them in your bistro, right?

Yes, that's correct.

And can I ask about like your customers, do they like Abruzzo wine?

I think at first, they were kind of questioning what is this wine and then also confusing Montepulciano with the Tuscany region as well. But after explaining it to them, and having them tried multiple wines, I think they've gradually become more acceptable to try more wines from the region and have really enjoyed them.

Sounds great.

Michele, you're from Italy, then back in Italy, what's people's opinion about Abruzzo wine? Is it one of those, I know Italy has so many famous, world famous wine regions. How does Abruzzo feature Italian ranking?

Actually, in Italy, we have this problem that we are this huge, wide range of varieties of grape, varieties and wine varieties that we have. It's also sometimes a limit. So we drink a lot of local wines.

So I'm coming from the north from Verona. And most popular wines there in my city are the wines that are from the territory. Let’s say that's the common people, if you go into a little bit more knowledge, the kind of consumers, of course, the Montepulciano, the Abruzzo or anyway, the Abruzzo wines are, have a quite good reputation for the pretty easy drink ability, I would say so yes.

Elliot, earlier on, you mentioned that some of your customers were a bit like pleasantly surprised by how nice Montepulciano the Abruzzo tasted, and they thought it was from Tuscany, but it’s actually from Abruzzo . So I would say from an expert point of view, how would you differentiate like how would you describe the difference in taste, in flavor to, let's say, a wine beginner like myself.

The difference between the Tuscany and a Abruzzo?

Yeah, Tuscany and Abruzzo.

The Tuscany wines are mostly made out of Sangiovese. So it's more of a drier, more acidic, more tart flavors. The Abruzzo wines are can be both more round and juicy, but they're better also for drinking on their own, whereas the Tuscany wines tend to do better with food. They're more well rounded and accessible at a younger age as well.

Since you also do a lot of pairings in your wine bistro, in your wine bar, right? So what kind of food, actually speaking of pairings, what kind of food would you pair Abruzzo wines with?

For the higher level wines, they go great with beef and steak I think, we've paired some of the riserva with our wagyu beef and then on the more for the regular stuff I would say for people who just wanna drink bottle or if you have some of the old wines from where they're more powerful for people like higher alcohol and bigger ones. And then for Trebbiano, it's more to pair with fish for drinking during the day. It's quite refreshing. So that's what I would say.

Trebbiano is white, right?

Yes.

Thank you. I'm getting a bit confused because obviously you guys are wine experts. You talk about this like the back of your hands, but for our audience, many of them are real amateurs. They really don't know much about wine. I would like to invite Michele to give us really a crash course of some of the most popular types of wine, both red and white from that region.

From Abruzzo, wine is definitely in red, the king, the absolute king is Montepulciano, the Abruzzo which is not just the most widely planted in the region, but is the second most widely planted grape in Italy. It's a very very important grape before the Italian system itself.

In the younger version, it's very crispy, very fruity, the soft tannin almost non perceptible sometimes and the acidity is the main component. So this makes it very refreshing, can be drunk in multiple occasion, can be drunk by itself, can be drunk as an aperitif or can be used to pair simple food.

Sorry to interrupt here because you mentioned the tannin level. I've actually heard that from some of our other guest speakers in this whole series. Is that true that Abruzzo wines, especially at Montepulciano, it has much less tannin, has much lower tannin level compared to some of the other well-known Italian wines, like the big wines, like Barolo.

Yeah, definitely. It's on another level, I mean, lower or more approachable in terms of tannin than Nebbiolo or Sangiovese. Nebbiolo would say it's probably the most tannin grape that we have in it. Maybe Sagrantino, like Sagrantino is even stronger. Sagrantino it comes from Umbria. She's a region bordering Abruzzo. Anyway, Montepulciano, it's really in his younger version, none oak, more fruity, it's very, very approachable. Also for beginners because the tannin is kind of difficult to be understood to be faced.

It's an acquired taste, I have to say.

I would say yeah.

This is speaking from experience. We actually held a few wine tasting events before. Then we prepared some of those really, really big, quite expensive wines with very high tannin. And then it really, you need experience and you need involve...

You need to learn how to love them and how to understand the tannin.

Yeah, exactly. And quite surprisingly, or unsurprisingly, those big wines are not as well received and then during those tasting events because most of the participants were quite amateurish, so they were actually complaining about the more expensive wines saying that they don't taste good because it has a very high level of tannin.

Yeah, so that's speaking from experience I think, definitely, it sounds like Abruzzo wine with lower tannin level. It seems like it's going to be a lot friendlier, a lot more like you said approachable especially to maybe some of our audience.

Yeah, it's definitely like that. But as Elliot said before, in their refined versions, the riserva (经过较长时间的陈酿，品质较高的酒) , Montepulciano can arrive to very, very high points of taste and aromas can be a very complex and structured wine that has nothing to envy to the big Italian wines, Barolo or Nebbiolo. Yeah, so I am a white wine drinker in general. I prefer, I'm definitely...

I see.

Yeah.

So you just mentioned Montepulciano that's red. What is the famous white, Trebbiano, like Elliot just mentioned?

Trebbiano is definitely the most popular. It's the most popular grape, white grape of Italy and in Abruzzo, it drives. The most particular, I would say it's Pecorino, which is a local grape from Abruzzo area or in... some on the east coast, central Italy coast between Abruzzo and Marche, bit of north, but Abruzzo is where it gives the best and it's marked as a DOC, so. yeah, these three, I would say they make probably the 95% of the total production of Abruzzo wines.

I see, and now back to Elliot. So I'm gonna ask a technical question and then just because a lot of our audience would have very limited knowledge about wine. You mentioned riserva. I've seen that on the Italian wine bottles. Could you give us a very brief introduction? What that is? Is that a category of any particular wine?

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Riserva is more, each region has different qualifications for what a riserva is. A lot of times it has to do with the amount of years it needs to be aged before it can be released. For Montepulciano D’Abruzzo, the riserva, it needs to be aged for a minimum of 2 years and 9 months of that has to be in oak. I believe it has to be at least 12.5% alcohol.

I see. So compared with what you called like young wines, riserva is definitely the higher end, would you say?

Yeah, that I mean, because you have to age them, they're gonna cost more money and because you have to use oak barrels, so it costs the wine maker more to produce in a longer time to store. But you get the value with the complexity of flavor, especially with the better wines and their integration with oak.

I see. Now moving slightly away from the Abruzzo wines themselves. Can I ask you Elliot in your import business, do you import mostly Italian wines or just you said you mentioned Europe, I was wondering if it's more Italian or more French?

For me, I'd say 1/3 of my portfolio is probably from Italy. I just think that they're the wines are very good with food and for everyday drinking. And I just I fell in love with them at... from a young age and so they've always had a soft spot in my heart.

Yeah, I mean as an outsider, I have an observation and you can make a comment as if this observation is true or not, being someone in the industry. I've noticed as a wine drinker myself in the past probably 10 years ago, many places you go in China, they sort of really favored French wine. French wine was definitely the go to choice. But now it seems like in recent years, I've seen more and more and more Italian wines. Would you say that's true? Or is it just my observation?

No, it's definitely true. I think in the beginning everybody thought the best was from France, but actually a lot of the wines that were being imported weren't actually to Chinese taste. Like when you were, a lot of people were drinking Bordeaux or even lower level Bordeaux, which can be quite stringent. That's why people 15, 20 years ago would even mix it, say with coke, to make it more palatable. Where now you don't really see French wine as much being served in restaurants, especially in Shanghai. You don't see much Bordeaux being served anymore. And I think with Italian wine, there's just so much variety and so many different flavors that it's become much more interesting to the Chinese consumer.

OK. That is the same as my observation as a consumer.

Now Michele, what about you, what kind of market trends you have observed in the Chinese market or maybe even in Shanghai specific market in general, like I know you mostly do Italian wines right?

Yeah, more opening to other countries that to other producing countries, and this goes together with the fact that the level of knowledge of the people is growing. So there is more people that is knowledgeable about wines and they realize that there is not just one producing country, but there are many.

And then also the younger generation, the new drinkers, they are as young people often doing, they are more open to experiment to try new things, finding exactly a different kind of approach with Italian wines compared to big, bold wines from the Bordeaux region, also exploring other regions of France, for example, and I personally go often to crash to areas explore to learn more wine and also from Italy. So this is what is the trend, the trend is people want to learn more. When they want to learn more, they will discover Italy and that's a huge platform to learn about wines because we have a so many local grapes and also we grow the international varieties. You have every kind of taste from the very stringent tannic people the reds to lighter bodied wines, to sweet wines. We have every region has its particularity. I think it's a good trend actually.

Even just to try to sample all sorts of Italian wines that's like a job for a lifetime, really, you have just simply so many types of grapes, so many great wines.

Never stop learning.

Talking about learning, talking about getting wine related knowledge, let’s direct a question back to Elliot. So people as a restaurant owner, as a wine bar owner, over the years, have you noticed that people who came into your wine bar, wine bistro, have you noticed that they are now getting more informed?

I'd say that they are more informed, but one of the things that I love about crush is that our goal is to have people try new things or different versions of things that they already like. So I think that there's been a recent trend in the world, but especially in China with natural wines. And now I find that people are more coming back to try more classic wines and that's what I think Italy excels it.

They're going back to classic wine.

Yeah, for me, the main difference is that when you have a lot of the best producers, when the wines are very young, they're not very accessible, which is partially I think the problem that a lot of your guests had with drinking like Barolo or Brunello that were very expensive. Because when they're young, they're just not very accessible. And also if you don't have them with food to mellow out the tannins, then it makes it quite difficult. That’s what I would say.

I see. Now as we're coming to the end of our discussions, I would like to ask both of you because you both seem to like wine from the Abruzzo region, and then you seem to have high hopes for wines from that region. So I would like to ask you to give like a general, probably looking to the future, as in the gross potential of Abruzzo wines in terms of getting them imported into China. Let's direct the question first to Michele.

I see a huge potential because first of all, there is availability of the wine. So Abruzzo produces a lot Montepulciano, it's widely produced grape and also because of this friendly price compared to many other regions, there could be a big growth. There is room for expansion for the wines of Abruzzo , especially the reds. Whites are still, I would say, still limited to the cities because of the traditions of the drinking habits of Chinese people that they prefer reds, but for reds definitely. I wish that this, through this recording this podcast can help more people to approach this kind of wine and discover another... it's a beautiful region of Italy very natural... a lot of nature around, yeah.

The other day I was actually talking to Davide for our listeners. He is representing Abruzzo Consortium. We were talking about the possibility of maybe doing some live streaming sessions in the future in the Abruzzo origin to actually show people what that region looks like and then to give them some firsthand sort of impression, so to speak.

So Elliot, what do you think about the future of importing Abruzzo into China?

I think it has a bright future. Like Michele said before the price point is probably its greatest advantage, because the wines at the lower price point and a higher quality than comparable wines from other countries. I find there's a much broader range of delicious wines and whereas in most countries, the wines at that price point are I wouldn't say a crowd pleasing, I think with the more and more women drinking wine, especially on the coast, I think the whites though will be definitely much smaller than the reds. I think they'll be a growing demand for that. But of course, at the end of the day, red wines will probably be where the most growth is. And I think, again, going back to the versatility, you can have Montepulciano at a barbecue with pizza, but you can also have it with the finest beef in the world.

With the steak.

I mean, it's everybody gets caught up in, a lot of people get caught up in names and regions, but at the end of the day it's what you taste and the beauty of that will be having people come back to the region.

Exactly.

Yeah, I think like I said to Roger the other day, Roger is a wine expert, sommelier, also a restaurant owner, bar owner in Xiamen, and then he was commenting on the fact, by the end of the day, especially now the trend is people are moving away from thinking of wine as a way to show off status, but more as just something to enjoy with friends or on your own.

So on that note, we're gonna wrap up today's episode. Thank you so much, Elliot, and thank you so much Michele for coming to the show and sharing with us this wonderful knowledge about Abruzzo , the region and also its wines.

My pleasure.

Thank you very much as well. It was great conversation.

Thank you, Lulu.

Okay.