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Certainly not always the case but some people have a greater difficulty getting over
当然了，情况也不总是这样有些人和自己所受到的迫害相比更难忘记他们所犯下的罪行
the experience that they perpetrated rather than what,
更难忘记的是他们所犯下的罪行
what they were on the receiving end of and the The Taxi to The Darkside showed
他们所犯下的罪行在纪录片《驶向阴霾的出租车》表明
a number of the military that were over there.
很多军人都是这样的
The lack of volition is its key issue, I mean it's not that it's their choice to do it, they were instructed Yeah these are the techniques you are to apply.
缺少意愿是关键问题我的意思是他们不是自愿选择这么做的他们是受人指挥的.是这些是你必须要使用的审讯技巧
Yeah that too. Yeah and the system certainly does not back them up
是的，是的系统当然不会支持他们
they're hung out to dry where the higher level remain sacrosanct. Yeah.
他们在外游荡，任其枯萎而更高一层仍是神圣而不可侵犯的，是的
Hi, Claudia Cotton, I was at a torture conference at Fulton California a year ago at which there were two survivors a man and a woman,
你好，我是克劳迪娅?科顿1年前，我在加利福尼亚富尔顿参加了一次关于酷刑的会议，当时有两个幸存者一位男士，一位女士
a woman counselled um, torturers ,former torturers the man did street theatre.
女士曾为施暴者，前施暴者做过咨询师男士是做街头表演的
One of the things he told us was that he was from South America,
男士告诉我们一件事他来自南非
many people who are the hands on torturers are themselves the survivors of torture and
那里有很多人既是施虐者也是酷刑的幸存者
that's how they learned how to do it.
这就是他们生存的方式
Have you encountered that in your work?
在你的工作过程中，曾经碰到过这种情况吗
We have chosen at the Kovler Center not to address the people who do the, um.
我们中心已经选择不去关注那些对别人施虐的人
Even if they are survivors also?
即使他们本身也是酷刑的幸存者?
The trouble would be that if they are people who have been torturers,
问题就是如果他们是施虐者
and they are coming to Kovler, that can create conditions that are less safe
那么他们来到中心就可能会给幸存者产生
for the survivors and unfortunately there's so much need that people who have,
不安全的环境，不幸的是有很多人已经来到我们这儿
who have approached there and have said I have done torture and
他们来到这里说自己曾经虐待过别人
I am troubled by it and I need treatment for it are referred elsewhere.
自己现在受其困扰，需要治疗我们会介绍他们去别的中心
they don't receive services but another example that I think is parallel is that
我们不会提供服务我能想到另一个相似的例子就是
